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Trinity Confusion

Logical issues

“If you try to explain the trinity, you lose your mind, if you deny the trinity, you lost your soul.” – Augustine

The first commandment should be understandable! Instead lay members are to docilely accept what men tell them to think; and they even they do not know.  God is not the author of confusion, which is all that the trinity doctrine is – the source of madness, murders and mystery. People accepted the doctrine of the trinity, forced by a pagan emperor who was in bed with the harlot church at Rome, out of fear, not by seeking truth. Those who opposed this pagan philosophy were excommunicated or executed in the name of civil peace. God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and a sound mind!

“The doctrine of the trinity list in scripture in solution; when it is crystallized from its solvent it does not cease to be scriptural but only comes into clearer view. Or, to speak without figure, the doctrine of the trinity is given to us in scripture, not in formulated definition but in fragmentary allusions; when we assemble the disjecta membra into the organic unity, we are not passing from scripture but entering more thoroughly into the meaning of scripture. we may state the doctrine in technical terms supplied by philosophical reflection…”

“That is to say, it embodies a truth which has never been discovered and is indiscoverable, by natural reason. With all his searching, man has not been able to find out for himself the deepest things of God”

“As the doctrine of the trinity is indiscoverable by reason, so it is incapable of proof from reason”

– International standard bible encyclopedia

The doctrine of the Trinity is not in scripture, save but through reason and allusions, yet there is no proof of it through reason? You can’t apply reason or proof to the nature of God?

God demands that we test and prove all things! The above quote asserts that the bible defines God [the most important task for a follower is a relationship with the one true God] in fragments and allusions, in a way that is impossible to understand – even for church leaders? Would God hide Himself from those who seek Him?  The church “fathers” used pagan philosophy to explain God’s nature! Despite Paul using references to pagan poets, when dealing with worshiping YHWH, He is clear that He DOES NOT want us to borrow pagan thoughts, practices, and ideas to honor or worship Him!

ISBE also follows in speaking of the Trinity:

  • -No Rational Proof of It
  • -Finds Support in Reason
  • -Not Clearly Revealed in the Old Testament
  • -Prepared for in the Old Testament
  • -Presupposed Rather Than Inculcated in the New Testament
  • -Implied in the Whole New Testament

True, the carnal human mind cannot understand spiritual things; but must gather the truth from God’s word; which is Truth [John 17:17]. Instead countless billions buy into man’s ideas, poorly retrofitted and read back into scripture.

“No sooner do I conceive of the one than I am illuminated by the splendour of the three; no sooner do I distinguish them than I am carried back to the one. When I think of any one of the three, I think of Him as the whole, and my eyes are filled, and the greater part of what I am thinking escapes me… When I contemplate the three together, I see but one torch, and cannot divide or measure out the undivided light…” – Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church

“the essence is not exclusive to only one of these at a time… the essence is not divisible among the distinction’s of persons but indivisible” -Let us Reason Ministries

“one should not speak of trinitarianism in the new testament without serious qualification. when one does speak of an unqualified trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origin to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century… Herein lies the difficulty… the dogmatic formula ‘one God in three Persons’ was the product of three centuries of doctrinal development -new catholic encyclopedia

“the term ‘trinity’ is not a biblical term, and we are not using biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine” – ISBE

“Professing to be wise, they became fools” So many have just accepted this “blessed mystery” or tried to use human logic to explain something that the bible does not support, to be viewed as wise in the eyes of others. Even at church councils, the ratifying of the doctrine was not even because of understanding and agreement but fear of persecution for not agreeing!

Triune nature defies logic

Was Christ seeking His own will, or the will of the Father? If all one being, how can that work?  Did Christ pray to Himself? How did the Father send Jesus if they were one? Did the spirit not send Jesus as well? Was the spirit or the Father the father of Jesus? How would ⅔ of a being defer to a human? How could ⅓ of one being die?  Where did Jesus ascend to if He was already part of the trinity?  Was there two Christs? How could Christ be the high priest and intercede on our behalf to the Father if all three are one? ⅓ of a being mediating to the ⅔ of one being?  How can Christ as ⅓ of a being sit at the right hand of another ⅓ of a being? Was the trinity two persons for 3 days? Do all three live inside us at baptism?

Most references to the “Godhead” in the New Testament JUST reference God the Father and Jesus the Christ – with no reference or allusion to God’s Holy Spirit as a person, lest he/it should be mentioned equally! [Look at John, 1,2,3 John – everywhere!]

When confronted with the logical gaps in stating the Holy Spirit is a co-equal person in a trinity, most just say “it’s a blessed mystery” or “normal rules don’t apply, because it’s God” yet we deviate from the “simplicity that is Christ!” Its not supposed to be so complicated that you go insane trying to figure out your Creator!

We are to worship in spirit and truth – do we expect that God allowed His people to wait 300 years for philosophers  to teach that He is a trinity?

Still, some may rightly reject the politically-charged council rulings of the Roman Catholic Church in the 3rd to 5th centuries developed under pagan philosophy and self-appointed authority and assert that just because some people got it wrong, one cannot “throw out the baby with the bath-water” when it comes to the doctrine of the Trinity. So let’s look at all the verses people use in SUPPORT of the Trinity scripturally:

Verses in support of a Trinity?

While theologians and biblical scholars admit the Bible does not explicitly teach the trinity (something that most professing Christians are not aware of), they still claim certain passages prove a triune God. What is the truth of these supposed “proof texts”?

The term “Trinity” is found nowhere in scripture, and almost all theologians admit that the teaching of the trinity is not found in the bible, yet turn around and try to twist verses to support it.

1 John 5:7-8

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Words in bold added erroneously to try to prove the Greek idea of a triune god. Pure human invention. Most bible margins admit this. [NU and M omit these words] Only one or two very late texts have these words [Trinity college in Dublin]. One to 112. I am going to go with the majority on this one and believe that these were added by folks with an agenda of trying to fit the Trinity into the bible! The Vulgate has it only post 8th century, as it is a Catholic invention, but even the Latin along with all other translations and languages and ancient manuscripts do not contain these words.. They also removed at least 2 commandments from  the “legit list” under their self-proclaimed authority.

Matthew 29:19

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Listing God’s spirit here does not define it as a person – plenty of things have names (love, liberty, justice, mountains, cars, etc…) The father and son have a name, and God’s spirit bears that name to God’s children.

Into the name of:

  • The father – after whom the whole family in heaven is named. He is the head of the house.
  • The son – the way salvation is possible
  • The spirit of God (Pneuma = neuter gender = it) because the father uses it as the power through which begettal is done (Rom 16)
  • At baptism, we receive God’s [family] name by the power of the spirit through Christ the door. This does not prove a trinity.

John 15:26

“But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

God’s spirit [pneuma = breath/wind] is referred to as a conforter here. In Greek, “comforter” is a masculine pronoun and is thus translated “he.” Gender was not assigned to “spirit” but “comforter”

John 10:30

I and My Father are one.

  • Amos 3:3 asks – “can two walk together unless they are agreed?”
  • Gen 2:24 – husband and wife become one.
  • Jesus did NOT say “I, my father, and the holy spirit are one” – if the trinity is true, why would the spirit be left out?

John 14:9

“…He who has seen Me has seen the Father…”

Does this mean that they are literally the same? [Again omitting the spirit] No.

Rather this shows that by Christ’s actions, he revealed the father, for they are of the same mind [not literal/physical, but in oneness, like two walking together and agreed, or husband/wife]

John 1:1-2

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

  • No mention of the holy spirit here. Was [he] it not present? Not until the NT?
  • God [the father] created everything through the Word [logos]
  • (Psalm 33:6 by the Word of the Lord the heavens were created)

Acts 13:2

While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.

  • They [the group in this context] were seeking God’s will in the ordination of two men

  • They were fasting – humbling themselves and drawing closer to God [often 24hrs]

  • “Holy spirit said” – if this were a literal voice from God, they would have had their answer and finished there, yet they continued praying and fasting before choosing. They were being lead by God’s spirit inside them and wanted to be sure how to understand it.

    • Rom 8:14 – as many as are lead by the spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

    • God’s spirit leads His [God the Father’s] people, not with a loud audible literal voice.

  • “For the work I have called them to”

    • The Father does the calling [John 6:44], through His spirit; the spirit doesn’t do calling on its own, but directed by the Father.

    • Jesus then determines who will be used in the ministry [again, not the spirit] 1 Cor 12:28.

    • There is no calling role set aside for the spirit, because it the means and power of God, not a person!

  • Audible voice of a God-being? Not likely – without great displays of force and power John 5:37, Acts 9

  • they prayed [to the Father] after “the spirit said.” If there was an audible voice, why still seek to understand who they should ordain?

  • laid their hands on them – calling upon God to bless someone.

  • they sent them away – [the people sent them, not the spirit]

Isaiah 44:6

Besides me there is no God

  • Hebrew for “God” is Elohi’m [plural / collective noun; comparable to ‘kingdom/family’]

  • there is one God family, not just one God being

Old testament claims

“Although the doctrine of the Trinity is implicit rather than explicit in the Old testament, at the same time it is properly held that with the accompanying light of the new testament this truth can be found in the old” – Unger’s Bible Dictionary

So where is the New Testament truth?  It is found nowhere in the Old Testament and presupposed and already established in the new? This circular reasoning never ends, nor gets proven scripturally!

Of course the Holy Spirit is mentioned in the NT, as it is the power and nature of God; the means why which He calls His children [through Christ the door] – and it is vital! But not a person!

Old testament

What of the OT and sanctity of the number 3?  It is used as a number of completion/finality in time and events, but not in terms of God.

  • 3 times a year, your males shall come before the Lord [the holy days/seasons] Deut 16:16
  • Jonah in belly 3 days 3 nights.
  • But that’s about it…

Numbers 6:24-26

The LORD bless you, and keep you;

The LORD make His face shine on you, And be gracious to you;

The LORD lift up His countenance on you, And give you peace.

Some use this as an argument for the trinity? Because it talks about 3 blessings from God?

This is not support of a triune God… If Israel worshipped a trinity, why would it not be explicit?

So many places in the Old and New Testament would have been ideal to say “by the way, there are 3 God beings” but it never does.

Verse that show God is not a Trinity

Paul’s writings

In ALL of Paul’s writings where he addresses the church[es] he’s writing to, he says “Greetings from God the Father and Jesus Christ. with NO mention of the spirit!  Paul, who was taught directly by Jesus for years, should know of the nature of God!

When talking to/about the Father, the spirit is omitted time and time again

Matthew 27:46

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

  • Did the spirit not also forsake him? Did he forsake himself?

Luke 10:22

“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

  • Where is the spirit?

John 17:3

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent

  • No spirit

John 17:11

“Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me,that they may be one as We are.”

  • This is part of a lengthy prayer from Jesus praying to the Father. No mention of or support of a trinity.

John 17:20

20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

  • No spirit mentioned in one-ness
  • Christ and the Father are one THROUGH God’s spirit, not along WITH it. The spirit of God binds the Father and Christ.

John 16:13

However, when [it], the Spirit of truth, has come, [it]will guide you into all truth; for [it] will not speak on [its] own authority, but whatever [it] hears [it] will speak; and [it] will tell you things to come.

  • proper pronoun = neuter – “it” not He
  • the spirit of God is not a sentient coequal being with God, lest it would speak on its own authority, but we read that it has not its own authority!
  • The will of the Father is understood through the spirit [nature/essence/mind] of God
  • Even Christ said he was doing the will of the Father, not his own!

Dan 7:13

  • describes two beings: the Son of Man coming before the Ancient of Days. Christ did not approach himself…

Acts 7:54

  • Stephen’s vision shows God with Christ at His right hand.

John 5:30

  • Christ can, of his own self, do nothing – but through the Father. Jesus left the immortality of the God family and needed the Father to work in him through His spirit, as we need to do as well.

John 14:7-10

  • Know Christ, know the Father.
  • The Father was working in Christ – if the spirit were a person, would not it have been the spirit doing the work?

Acts 2:17

  • can you pour out a person?  God and Christ are never described in such ways

2 Tim 1:6

  • Spirit is a gift. Are God or Christ referred to as a gift?
  • Do they need to be stirred up? If a person, this would seem like a genie in a lamp -asleep until summoned?

Eph 4:7

  • measure of spirit – again, a measure of a person? No, a measure of power.

Phil 1:9

  • supply of the spirit

Titus 3:5

  • Needs to be renewed; like a license. The license cannot drive, but enables you to. Unless renewed, you can no longer legally drive.
  • A person cannot be renewed, but a measure of something can.

Mark 5:25

  • Christ felt power go out of him.  An unbiased reading of all these scriptures together paints a picture of a power, not a person

Whole of the bible

  • Omission of a statement of a trinity, or the personhood of the spirit of God.


So what is the nature of God?

God is a family.

There is one God, comprised of two beings.

  • Genesis shows a conversation between 2 beings (not 3). Gen 1:26; 11:7.
  • There were two in the beginning, as John records [John 1:1] – the Word, and God.

These beings (God the Father and Jesus the Christ) are spirit. They are made of and bound by the Holy Spirit; thus the spirit is their essence and power. We are flesh, [the] God [family] is spirit

Believing in the two beings in the God family does in no way limit God. Both are infinite, and have eternally existed, yet there is a difference in greatness and authority in the God family. [Psalm 110:1 The Lord said to My Lord.]

The Holy Spirit is the life, mind, nature, essence, and power of God and Christ.

One family; distinct and separate beings

John 17 – Christ prays that he and the Father [not including the spirit] would be ONE, as God’s people would be one. This analogy is understood on the human/collective level, thus since it is used to show how Christ and the Father are one, we should understand it the same.

Human philosophy has made us reinterpret plain scripture and many say that God is three persons in one being; something the founders and proponents of this doctrine of man admit is both impossible to fully understand, or prove from scripture alone!

The bible teaches us what we need to know. Believing in a trinity through extra-biblical philosophy flies in the face of scriptures that tell us about God’s nature: God the Father, and the Word who became the Savior who is now at the right hand of God.

John 1:1 states that the Word was with God and the Word was God.  We can think of it like John Smith and his son Jake. Jake is out fishing with his dad. Jake is with Smith, and is Smith. Its the family name.

The Word became flesh as Jesus the Messiah, and was the one who interacted with Old Testament Israel. [1 Cor 10:1-4] The Father was revealed through Christ in his ministry, but not before that. [John 5:37, John 1:18, Luke 10:22]

Christ revealed the Father, but there is no scripture saying Christ or the Father revealed the spirit. Christ revealed the Father through the Holy Spirit (the substance of God and Christ), but did not reveal the spirit through the spirit

The first commandment tells us to not have any other gods before God. Accepting the pagan Greek philosophy of a triune being with coequal persons places this wrong concept of God before the true Ancient of Days and places Christ as co-equal, when he told us he was subordinate.  Deut 6:4 doesn’t mean a triune being, but that God alone we shall hear and obey.

Spirit not equal

Christ did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, yet says that his Father is greater than he.  A child is equal under the law as an adult – they are of the same substance (physical humanity), but there is still a difference in authority.

What of the Holy Spirit?

John 13:16 – the servant is not greater than the master

Psalm 104:30 – YOU send forth YOUR spirit, and YOU renew the face of the earth.  the YOU in the one with the greatness and power, not the means through which it is done. Christ also said He who sent me is greater than I. God the Father is the authority, the head of the household – after which the whole family in heaven is named.

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